Ethanol related problems

[Midme99]

Francis, Josh, and I all arrived at the RKS practice with full tanks of gas from the previous season. Maybe not the smartest thing to do, but not usually a problem with high test gas.  All 3 of our cars ran with no problems that day, burning a little over a half tank of fuel each.  Each car was topped off with fresh gas before the test and tune at Speedway 95.  The cars seemed to run fairly well the first practice, but all fell off on every session after that.  The rpm's dropped off considerably, no matter how low we went with the gear ratio. We even changed the carb on Josh's car trying to figure out what was wrong, and it still continued to slow down. Tony was also experiencing problems and even tried some dry gas just to see if that would help, even knowing this is against the current fuel rule, we were grasping at straws tryng to figure out what was wrong.

When we got our cars home, we removed the fuel pumps and filters and tore them apart. We found the filters to be somewhat plugged and the fuel pumps had a white substance all through them.  Not exactly like the old varnish you'd get with old gas, but it was still some kind of foreign substance. We rebuilt the fuel pumps, changed the filters and flushed out the fuel systems. When we got to the track, we talked it over with the other drivers and found others were having problems as well. We decided as a group to relax the fuel rule and allow drivers to use the track fuel for the time being until we can come up with a better solution. The track fuel, although expensive, has no ethanol and seemed to work fine in these engines.  It has 110 octane and is an advantage in high compression engines, but I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference in these engines, but if it does, everyone had the same chance to use it. The good part about it is we only need about a gallon or so all day.  We thought about using an additive for ethanol gas, which is also against the current fuel rule, but it was not readily available to all of us at the track and the track fuel was.

If anyone has any suggestions or solutions, we would be happy to hear them.  We had one engine blow up this weekend that wasn't using the track fuel and we really hope it wasn't because of the ethanol gas. We're hoping we can all put our heads together and come up with something cost efficient that will prevent any problems in the future.   

[17Racer]

Fred,   
  We are very concerned with the possible ethanol problem as well. We had drained both cars completely before practice last week and on Saturday's
practice this week used the gas from the week before. My car would start, run at idle for 5 min then die. It wouldnt start or pull fuel after that. We noticed moisture or something in the pulse line so we pulled everything apart.
We didnt find anything in the pump or carb but all it takes is a little water drop to lock up the jet and it wiil run like crap or not at all. That gas was only
a week old and was put in a completely dry system. We are thinking of draining everything every week as an extreme to avoid future problems.
   One of the things I am still working on and have talked to a few of the other drivers about is using VP Racing fuel. It is 91 octane with no additives
or ethanol just like pump gas. It wouldnt be as expensive as 110 octane and keep us within the rules. RKS gets their kart fuel from VP racing and I want to look into the possibility of having fuel at the track and everyone would run it.
That would also eliminate a possible tech issue with everyone bringing their own fuel vs all running the same fuel. We have all heard of the problems with
other engines and I was hoping it wouldn't be an issue for us. Something else
to mess with I guess..   Rich SR     Let me know your thoughts or ideas

[Midme99]

Rich,
I think the VP fuel would be a great idea. What we want to try and do is make sure we're all on the same page as far as fuel goes.  If that is something everyone would like to do, we could get some to have at all the other tracks and use the fuel at RKS when we race there. However everyone wants to do it, I'm just real concerned with the ethanol causing unnecessary problems with our engines.
Do you know the cost of the VP fuel and where it can be purchased?  Butch Urquhart used to be a VP dealer in Brewer, I'm not sure if he still is, but I'll give him a call and find out.

[Midme99]

I just talked with Butch Urquhart, a VP fuel dealer, and they suggest we use the VP Motorsport 98L fuel for our cars:

MOTORSPORT 98L
Designed for lower compression engines in racing series that require a cost-effective controlled fuel. Spec Fuel for Stars of Karting, ProKart Challenge, IKF and Legends Nationals.

    * Color: Light Blue
    * Motor Octane 96
    * Specific Gravity: .715 at 60° F

He is going down to Kittery on Thursday and can pick us up a drum as they have one available. (but only one right now) If we can come to an agreement that's the way we should go, I'll have him pick it up so we would have it for our race together on May 10th. I realize that this is going to cost us all a little more for our fuel than we're used to, but it will be a lot cheaper than replacing engines every time we turn around. Would be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts as soon as possible.
Rich, if you get a chance, please give me a call at 290-1126. 

[Midme99]

Like to hear from Todd, Larry, Chris, or any of the other drivers on what they think about this!?!

[Supercup]

 Im game for anything that makes things fair and better for our cars?  If you guys think we should go with VP Fuel then thats cool with me?

 

We as in my team havent experianced any of these issue though?

[Btripp]

Not that I am againist going to this new gas but I guess my only question is why can't we use the additive that they use in snowmobiles and all small engines?

[Midme99]

We have thought of that, but it may be a little harder to control just what additives people are putting in their cars.  If all the fuel comes out of the same drum you will always know everyone is getting the same fuel. We not only want to prevent any ethanol problems, but we also need to make sure whatever we do is fair for every driver. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'd hate to see any of us lose an engine just because we failed to do something before hand. Preventive maintenance is usually less costly in the long run. 

[mc55]

 i have been talking to some small engines dealers an a local tractor
 dealers around here.they say they have seen some probs with 22hp
  an smaller motors some are saying the gas is the prob an some say its not.
  they have been using this type of gas out west for years with no probs.
  my genset,4wheeler,bike has this gas in it all winter an i have had no probs.
  i think vp gas is going to put an added expesne on some of use that is struggling all ready .people i have been talking to say that the best an cheap
way to deal with not know is to use marine stabl.i know it will turn pump gas green an holds the gas for up to 1yr.to tech this iam not sure.vp gas ,cam 2,an
my favorite av gas, you can tell by the smell.my opinion is marine stabl
its cheap you can by it at walmart,napa one pint mixed right will last all year.
          larry


                           MJS RACING

[Btripp]

The marine stablizer is what I have been useing and I have not had any problams yet.

[Midme99]

Whether we use VP fuel or any of the additives mentioned, the rules will have to be changed.  Our current fuel rule does not allow additives of any kind, nor any racing fuel.  The VP gas is the closest thing to the current rule because it is only 96 octane and you can get up to 98 octane with super unleaded.

[Hammer24x]

What do they do out west with these fuels? There are millions of small engines in the US that must be running with Ethanol in the gas? I don't want to see teams having to chase down fuel all season long. I also don't want to see engines blowing up because of fuel issues either. We open a huge can of worms when we start allowing racing fuels and additives into our programs. This is not going to be an easy problem to fix. Lets come up with 2 or 3 solutions and vote one in. Does the MMRA or any other MiniCup series have this issue?? If so what are they doing?? What about Seekonk? Mike, do you have any input you might be able to share?

-Todd 

[Gator]

Make sure that when you are asking for imput from other demographic areas about this problem, make sure they are not taking into consideration oxygenated fuel.  I know alot of other states use this product and sometimes our own states without us even knowing.  What ever happens I would strongly suggest that you do not use any type of additive.  There is not any way to control this and they do make some very potent additive that will work in these motors.  Look in any racing catalouge that sells fuel additives and see for yourself.  The VP fuel is an excellent idea.  I may cost more but it will be worth it in the end.  Take a look at some of the prices for the additives, not talking about the local wal-mart either, and then compare it to the price of the fuel.  Do not let the people with money get better horsepower because they can afford a better fuel additive.  VP is the only way to make it fair for everyone.  Also just wanted to point out that the teams that are struggling $$$$$$$ wise, please do not take shortcuts when it comes to your motors.  They are the most expensive thing to replace.  There is not any way to tech a fuel additive, but there is a way to tech fuel, especially when vp gives you all the exact numbers for their fuel.  Gas stations vary from brand to brand and octane.  At least if you use the vp fuel, you will know exactally if the fuel has been altered in any way.  You can use pump gas as stated in the rules, but if you were going to go against the rules you can put additive in your fuel, and still not have it be detected, and that isn't fair for everyone.  There is a very wide range between additives, and price, just do not let that door open.

Wally